42 thoughts on “Did the early Church Fathers teach a rapture or a particular position of it?”

1. [I would like to share, on your truthful blog, what I recently spied on the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site which has other great articles. Lord bless you much! Joel]

   PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY

   by Dave MacPherson

   When I began my research in 1970 into the exact beginnings of the pretribulation rapture belief still held by many evangelicals, I assumed that the rapture debate involved only “godly scholars with honest differences.” The paper you are now reading reveals why I gave up that assumption many years ago. With this introduction-of-sorts in mind, let’s take a long look at the pervasive dishonesty throughout the history of the 179-year-old pretrib rapture theory:

   Mid-1820’s – German scholar Max Weremchuk’s work “John Nelson Darby” (1992) included what Benjamin Newton revealed about John Darby in the mid-1820’s during his pre-Brethren days as an Anglican clergyman:
   “J. N. Darby was a very subtle man. He had been a lawyer, or at least educated for the law. Once he wanted his Archbishop to pursue a certain course, when he (J.N.D.) was a curate in his diocese. He wrote a letter, therefore, saying he had been educated for the law, knew what the legal course would properly be; and then having written that clearly, he mystified the remainder of the letter both in word and in handwriting, and ended up by saying: You see, my Lord, such being the legal aspect of the case it would unquestionably be the best course for you to pursue, etc. And the Archbishop couldn’t make out the legal part, but rested on Darby’s word and did as he advised. Darby afterwards laughed over it, and indeed he showed a copy of the letter to Tregelles. This is not mentioned in the Archbishop’s biography, but in it is the fact that he spoke of Darby as ‘the most subtle man in my diocese.'”
   This reminds me of an 1834 letter by Darby which spoke of the “Lord’s coming.” Darby added, concerning this coming, that “the thoughts are new” and that during any teaching of it “it would not be well to have it so clear.” Darby’s deviousness here was his usage of a centuries-old term – “Lord’s coming” – to cover up his desire to sneak the new pretrib idea into existing posttrib groups in very low-profile ways!
   1830 – In the spring of 1830 a young Scottish lassie, Margaret Macdonald, came up with the novel notion of a catching up [rapture] of Spirit-filled “church” members before Antichrist’s “trial” [tribulation] of non-Spirit-filled “church” members – the first instance I’ve found of clear “pretrib” teaching (which was part of a partial rapture scheme). In Sep. 1830 “The Morning Watch” (a journal produced by London preacher Edward Irving and his “Irvingite” followers, some of whom had visited Margaret a few weeks earlier) began repeating her original thoughts and even her wording but gave her no credit – the first plagiarism I’ve found in pretrib history. Darby was still defending posttrib in Dec. 1830.
   Pretrib promoters have long known the significance of her main point: a rapture of “church” members BEFORE the revealing of Antichrist. Which is why John Walvoord quoted nothing in her revelation, why Thomas Ice habitually skips over her main point but quotes lines BEFORE and AFTER it, and why Hal Lindsey muddies up her main point so he can (falsely) assert that she was NOT a pretribber! (Google “X-Raying Margaret” for info about her.)
   NOTE: The development of the 1800’s is thoroughly documented in my book “The Rapture Plot.” You’ll learn that Darby wasn’t original on any chief aspect of dispensationalism (but plagiarized the Irvingites); that pretrib was initially based on only OT and NT symbols and not clear Scripture; that the symbols included the Jewish feasts, the two witnesses, and the man child – symbols adopted by Darby during most of his career; that Darby’s later reminiscences exaggerated his earliest pretrib development, and that today’s defenders such as Thomas Ice have further overstated what Darby overstated; that Irvingism didn’t need later reminiscences to “clarify” its own early pretrib development; that ancient hymns and even the writings of the Reformers were subtly revised to make it appear they had taught pretrib; and that after Darby’s death a clever revisionist quietly made many changes in early Irvingite and Brethren documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites (and their female inspiration!) and give it dishonestly to Darby! (Before continuing, Google the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site and read “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” – a sample of the current exciting internetism!)
   1920 – Charles Trumbull’s book “The Life Story of C. I. Scofield” told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield’s “The Incredible Scofield and His Book” (1988) and David Lutzweiler’s “DispenSinsationalism: C. I. Scofield’s Life and Errors” (2006), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred “D.D.” etc. etc.!
   1967 – Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon’s “The Origins of the Brethren” quoted Darby associate Lord Congleton who was “disgusted with…the falseness” of Darby’s accounts of things. Rowdon also quoted historian William Neatby who said that others felt that “the time-honoured method of single combat” was as good as anything “to elicit the truth” from Darby. (In other words, knock it out of him!)
   1972 – Tim LaHaye’s “The Beginning of the End” (1972) plagiarized Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
   1976 – Charles Ryrie”s “The Living End” (1976) plagiarized Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970) and “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
   1976 – After John Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976) brutally twisted Robert Gundry’s “The Church and the Tribulation” (1973), Gundry composed and circulated a 35-page open letter to Walvoord which repeatedly charged the Dallas Seminary president with “misrepresentation,” “misrepresentations” (and variations)!
   1981 – “The Fundamentalist Phenomenon” (1981) by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson heavily plagiarized George Dollar’s 1973 book “A History of Fundamentalism in America.”
   1984 – After a prof at Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God in Florida told me that the No. 2 man at the AG world headquarters in Missouri – Joseph Flower – had the label of posttrib, my wife and I had two hour-long chats with him. He verified what I had been told. But we were dumbstruck when he told us that although AG ministers are required to promote pretrib, privately they can believe any other rapture view! Flower said that his father, an AG co-founder, was also posttrib. We also learned while in Springfield that when the AG’s were organized in 1914, the initial group was divided between posttribs and pretribs – but that the pretribs shouted louder which resulted in that denomination officially adopting pretrib! (For details on this and other pretrib double-mindedness, Google “Pretrib Hypocrisy.”)
   1989 – Since 1989 Thomas Ice has referred to the “Mac-theory” (his reference to my research), giving the impression there’s no solid evidence that Macdonald was the real pretrib originator. But Ice carefully conceals the fact that no eminent church historian of the 1800’s – whether Plymouth Brethren or Irvingite – credited Darby with pretrib. Instead, they uniformly credited leading Irvingite sources, all of which upheld the Scottish lassie’s contribution! Moreover, I’m hardly the only modern scholar seeing significance in Irvingism’s territory. Others in recent years who have noted it, but who haven’t mined it as deeply as I have, include Fuller, Ladd, Bass, Rowdon, Sandeen, and Gundry.
   1989 – Greg Bahnsen and Kenneth Gentry produced evidence in 1989 that Lindsey’s book “The Road to Holocaust” (1989) plagiarized “Dominion Theology” (1988) by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice.
   1990 – David Jeremiah’s and C. C. Carlson’s “Escape the Coming Night” (1990) massively plagiarized Lindsey’s 1973 book “There’s A New World Coming.” (For more info, type in “Thieves’ Marketing” on MSN or Google.)
   1991 – Paul Lee Tan’s “A Pictorial Guide to Bible Prophecy” (1991) plagiarized large amounts of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
   1991 – Militant Darby defender R. A. Huebner claimed in 1991 to have found new evidence that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827 – three years before Macdonald. Halfway through his book Huebner suddenly admitted that his evidence could refer to something completely un-rapturesque. Even though Thomas Ice admitted to me that he knew that Huebner had “blown” his so-called evidence, prevaricator Ice continues to tell the world that Huebner has “positive evidence” that Darby was pretrib in 1827! Ice also conceals the fact that Darby, in his own 1827 paper, was looking for only “the restitution of all things” and “the times of refreshing” (Acts 3:19,21) – which Scofield doesn’t see fulfilled until AFTER a future tribulation!
   1992 – Tim LaHaye’s “No Fear of the Storm” (1992) plagiarized Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976).
   1992 – This was when the Los Angeles Times revealed that “The Magog Factor” (1992) by Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler was a monstrous plagiarism of Prof. Edwin Yamauchi’s scholarly 1982 work “Foes from the Northern Frontier.” Four months after this exposure, Lindsey and Missler stated they had stopped publishing and promoting their book. But in 1996 Dr. Yamauchi learned that the dishonest duo had issued a 1995 book called “The Magog Invasion” which still had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (If Lindsey and Missler ever need hernia operations, I predict that the doctors will tell them not to lift anything for a long time!)
   1994 – In 1996 it was revealed that Lindsey’s “Planet Earth – 2000 A.D. (1994) had an embarrassing amount of plagiarism of a Texe Marrs book titled “Mystery Mark of the New Age” (1988).
   1995 – My book “The Rapture Plot” reveals the dishonesty in Darby’s reprinted works. It’s often hard to tell who wrote the footnotes and when. It’s easy to believe that the notes, and also unsigned phrases inside brackets within the text, were a devious attempt by someone (Darby? his editor?) to portray a Darby far more developed in pretrib thinking than he actually had been at the time. I found that some of the “additives” had been taken from Darby’s much later works, when he was more developed, and placed next to or inside his earliest works! One footnote by Darby’s editor, attached to Darby’s 1830 paper, actually stated that “it was not worth while either suppressing or changing” anything in this work! If his editor wasn’t open to such dishonesty, how can we explain such a statement?
   Post-1995 – Thomas Ice’s article “Inventor of False Pre-Trib Rapture History” states that my book “The Rapture Plot” is “only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse….” And David Reagan in his article “The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture” repeats Ice’s falsehood by claiming that I have republished my first book “over the years under several different titles.”
   Although my book repeats a bit of the Macdonald origin of pretrib (for new readers), all of my books are packed with new material not found in my other works. For some clarification, “The Incredible Cover-Up” has photos of pertinent places in Ireland, Scotland, and England not found in my later books plus several chapters dealing with theological arguments; “The Great Rapture Hoax” quotes scholars throughout the Church Age, covers Scofield’s hidden side, a section on Powerscourt, the 1980 election, the Jupiter Effect, Gundry’s change, and more theological arguments; “The Rapture Plot” reveals for the first time the Great Evangelical Revisionism/Robbery and includes appendices on miscopying, plagiarism, etc.; and “The Three R’s” shows hypocritical evangelicals employing occultic beliefs they say they have long opposed!
   So Thomas Ice etc. are twisting truth when they claim I am only a revisionist. Do they really think that my publishers DON’T know what I’ve previously written?
   Re arguments, Google “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts” and also obtain “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (AuthorHouse, 2006) by media personality Joe Ortiz.
   1997 – For years Harvest House Publishers has owned and been republishing Lindsey’s book “There’s A New World Coming.” During the same time Lindsey has been peddling his reportedly “new” book “Apocalyse Code” (1997), much of which is word-for-word the same as the Harvest House book – and there’s no notice of “simultaneous publishing” in either book! Talk about pretrib greed!
   1997 – This is the year I discovered that more than 50 pages of Dallas Seminary professor Merrill Unger’s book “Beyond the Crystal Ball” (Moody Press, 1973) constituted a colossal plagiarism of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970). After Lindsey’s book came out, Unger had complained that Lindsey’s book had plagiarized his classroom lecture notes. It was evident that Unger felt that he too should cash in on his own lectures! (The detailed account of this Dallas Seminary dishonesty is revealed in my 1998 book “The Three R’s.”)
   1998 – Tim LaHaye’s “Understanding the Last Days” (1998) plagiarized Lindsey’s “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
   1999 – More than 200 pages (out of 396 pages) in Lindsey’s 1999 book “Vanished Into Thin Air” are virtually carbon copies of pages in his 1983 book “The Rapture” – with no “updated” or “revised” notice included! Lindsey has done the same nervy thing with several of his books, something that has allowed him to live in million-dollar-plus homes and drive cars like Ferraris! (See my Google articles “Deceiving and Being Deceived” and “Thieves’ Marketing” for further evidence of this notably pretrib vice.)
   2000 – A Jack Van Impe article “The Moment After” (2000) plagiarized Grant Jeffrey’s book “Final Warning” (1995).
   2001 – Since 2001 my web article “Walvoord’s Posttrib ‘Varieties’ – Plus” has been exposing his devious muddying up of posttrib waters. In some of his books he invented four “distinct” and “contradictory” posttrib divisions, claiming that they are either “classic” or “semiclassic” or “futurist” or “dispensational” – distinctions that disappear when analyzed! His “futurist” group holds to a literal future tribulation and a literal millennium but doesn’t embrace “any day” imminency. But his “dispensational” group has the same non-imminency! Moreover, tribulational futurism is found in every group except the first one, and he somehow admitted that a literal millennium is in all four groups! On the other hand, it’s the pretribs who consistently disagree with each other over their chief points and subpoints – but somehow end up agreeing that there will be a pretrib rapture! (See my chapter “A House Divided” in my book “The Incredible Cover-Up.”)
   2001 – Since my “Deceiving and Being Deceived” web item which exposed the claims for Pseudo-Ephraem” and “Morgan Edwards” as teachers of pretrib, there has been a piranha-like frenzy on the part of pretrib bodyguards and their duped groupies to “discover” almost anything before 1830 walking upright on two legs that seemed to have at least a remote hint of pretrib! (An exemplary poster boy for such pretrib practice is Grant Jeffrey. To get your money’s worth, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”)

   FINALLY: Don’t take my word for any of the above. Read my 300-page book “The Rapture Plot” which has a jillion more documented details on the long-hidden but now-revealed history of the dishonest, 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised-until-the-real-bad-stuff-happens pretribulation rapture fad. If this book of mine doesn’t “move” you, I will personally refund what you paid for it!

   Reply

   • Thanks for the research insights!

     Yes, I have found many of the items you stated in my research too. I have not covered the deceptions, my focus is “what does the Bible say” and then lay that all out so people will know what they (the deceptions) say does not line up…

     Be blessed!

     Reply

   • Thanks for sharing Joel. I found this history from Dave MacPherson interesting. What is also noteworthy is the complete lack of mention of Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera and the Jesuit connections of many of the men listed in the timeline. I do not believe I ever heard of the “counter reformation” growing up in church in the 60s and 70s. Most Christians have an idea of the reformation but have never been exposed to the counter reformation. Jude warns of those who secretly infiltrate to teach false doctrines. Seeking Jesus Christ and His glory is our primary aim. False teaching and pride lead us astray. We must always challenge our thinking and seek the truth over our firmly held ideas.

     Reply

2. I have always thought about it and kept switching from believing in a rapture to going through the tribulation. I never stuck on either one. I listen to the scriptures every night and every morning and still am drawn to believing there will be a rapture–or not. . .

   Then the other day, I was pondering the motives for wanting someone to believe or not to believe. I wondered what the gain for the person would be. I am speaking of the Satan–the one who is always twisting scripture for his purpose or trying to convince us that what we are reading is not what we read, but something else.

   Who would benefit if there was a rapture? Satan. Satan, because all the true christians who oppose him would be gone–poof! and he would have no one objecting to his schemes. He would have more power during his last and final moments to gather in the goats.

   But, he would also benefit if christans did not believe in the rapture. Why? Because if many Christians did not believe Christ could come any second, they would be more lax, more laid back and not prepared for his arrival any second. We aren’t called sheep for nothing. They would not be watching and ready for the ‘any moment’.

   So, in this thought about the rapture being real, I came to realize that the only person who benefits if it is, would be Satan and the only person who benefits if Christians don’t believe in the rapture, is again, Satan.

   Many Christians who did not believe in an instant unexpected rapture; who thought they had more time to work out their salvation and were not ready for Christ to return at any moment would be left. This is when I think about two people in the bible who both made very poor decisions: Peter, who denied Christ and then was sorry and drew to him more, but then there was Judas who had been tormented over his part in betraying Christ and getting it all wrong.

   In his devastated state of emotion, guilt and unbrella of condemnation, Judas did not turn to Christ. What if the many Christians who were not prepared and were left to go through the tribulation and instead of turning closer to Christ, they behaved just as Judas did? Then, Satan wins even more victims.

   Isn’t this whole battle about pride, selfishness and wanting to exercise his will over God’s? Doesn’t he condemn and torment Christians who fall and hasn’t this worked to his advantage many times in history?

   This is why I am believing that whether there is a rapture or not, I am watching, ready and making sure I am walking on the narrow path, not turning to the left or to the right, but focused on my Lord , whenever God chooses for him to return and it could be at first as a rapture and then in the clouds–I don’t honestly really know the answer, but I know we are to be ready and have a lamps full for when the bridegroom comes for us.

   Isn’t this what really matters?

   In Christ,

   Donna

   Reply

   • Wow some great insights, of motivations and Satan, I have not explored much, except the motivation to get us to delve into too much emotionalism or a ticking feelings for something new…or just repeating what our favorite teachers say..or the laxness not to investigate what the Bible actually says…

     But, a rapture or no rapture has no bearing on Christ, the fact we will be gathered to Him, the wonder of His second coming! It is His second coming we look to our hope in Him, not a rapture. Thus Satan is nullified here. Even if the rapture is true, it is just a delivery system of us going to Jesus, the main event is that Christ is here in Person to judge and to award!

     My point about the rapture is, when argue over it is over nothing, liking going to a playoff game and instead of watching the game we argue what kind of mustard we should put on our hotdog (I prefer the brown) and miss the point, why we are there…Christ is our Point, He is the One we watch for and wait for! We do not watch for our theological bias to come about, we look to our LORD. And when He comes it will not be a secrete!

     Thanks for your insights and be blessed!

     Richard

     Phil 1:6

     Reply

   • God bless you donna

     Reply

   • I have not used Hal Lindsey’s work or that of Darbies. I have studied ancient commentary and Irenaeus of Lyons in vol 5 does talk about a rapture. I can see why the Orthodox church did not highlight this fact more to the point of saying there isn’t one. It can become a stumbling block. 1st Jesus said we will undergo persecution but not Gods wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 King James Bible
     “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”

     To understand what will happen you need to take the bible seriously and also understand the ancient Jewish customs. Christ and His church is referred to as His bride and follows the pattern of a Jewish wedding (ancient). The Orthodox church does not officially support the rapture view saying it is a protestant heresy. John Darby popularised the view and term and had lots of additional questionable teachings, illustrating why it is a stumbling block. The Orthodox church rather focuses on the individuals walk with Christ and worship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit .
     The Wedding Model
     Lets explore another reason why we should favor a “pre-tribulation” view of the Harpz, the “snatching up” of the Church.
     All through the Gospels, Jesus relied on the ancient Jewish wedding pattern for many of His parables, climaxing in His promise in the Upper Room in John 14. Many miss the full import of these allusions if we aren’t familiar with the model of ancient Jewish wedding practices.
     Jewish Wedding
     The first step, the Ketubah, or Betrothal, was the establishment of the marriage covenant, usually when the prospective bridegroom took the initiative and negotiated the price (mohair) he must pay to purchase her.
     Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was established, and the young man and woman were regarded as husband and wife. From that moment on, the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified – set apart – exclusively for her bridegroom. As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride drank from a cup of wine over which the betrothal had been pronounced.
     After the marriage covenant was established, the groom left his bride at her home and returned to his father’s house, where he remained separated from his bride for approximately 12 months. This afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and prepare for married life.
     During this period of separation, the groom prepared a dwelling place in his father’s house to which he would later bring his bride. At the end of the period of separation, the bridegroom came – usually at night – to take his bride to live with him. The groom, the best man, and other male escorts left the father’s house and conducted a torch-light procession to the home of the bride. Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the time of his coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival was preceded by a shout, which announced her imminent departure to be gathered with him. The time at which the groom would come for his bride was left up to the father entirely. (Starting to notice a pattern with the words of Jesus)
     After the groom received his bride, together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party returned from the bride’s home to the groom’s father’s house, where the wedding guests had assembled.
     Shortly after their arrival, the bride and groom were escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber, the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face. While the groomsmen and bridesmaids waited outside, the bride and groom entered the bridal chamber alone. There, in the privacy of that place, they entered into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted approximately one year earlier.
     After the marriage was consummated, the groom came out of the bridal chamber and announced the consummation of the marriage to the members of the wedding party waiting outside.Then, as the groom went back to his bride in the chamber, the members of the wedding party returned to the wedding guests and announced the consummation of the marriage.
     Upon receiving the good news, the wedding guests remained in the groom’s father’s house for the next seven days, celebrating with a great wedding feast.
     During the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (Cf. Genesis 29:21-23, 27-28) for the seven days of the huppah. Afterwards, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see her.
     The Ultimate Bride
     The New Testament portrays the Church as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5:22-33 (Paul even quotes Genesis 2:24 as the union at the Parousia of the Bridegroom in v.31!); cf. Romans 7:4; 2 Corinthians 11:2; James 4:4. In the opening verses of John 14, the marriage covenant is confirmed. Paul continually reminds us of the purchase price (Jesus sacrifice for us and you) and the covenant by which we, the Bride, are set apart, or sanctified.
     Ecclesiology vs. Eschatology
     It is this distinctive nature of the Church that is often overlooked by students of prophecy: it is more a matter of ecclesiology than eschatology.
     One thing that seems to highlight this distinctiveness is the strange remark Jesus made regarding John the Baptist:
     Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. -Matthew 11:11
     What does that mean? Jesus goes on to explain,
     For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. – Matthew 11:13
     It is John the Baptist that closes the Old Testament, not Malachi. A profound distinction appears to be drawn between the saints of the Old Testament and those of the New.
     One of the challenges in fully appreciating Paul’s epistles is the need to understand the staggering and distinctive advantages afforded the Church, in contrast to those of the Old Testament saints. And it is this role as the Bride of the Bridegroom that is emphasized in the parables and in the Book of Revelation.
     The Departure of the Bridegroom
     The Bridegroom has departed, and His return to gather His Bride is imminent. He has gone to prepare a place for you and me. (He has been at it for 2,000 years! It must be a spectacular abode for all his people). Remember the Christians are referred to as one body, the body of Christ.
     This very doctrine of “imminence” is taught throughout the New Testament and is a cornerstone of the “pre-tribulational” view: there is no event which is a prerequisite condition for His gathering of His Bride. The doctrine of “imminence” is also central to the Eastern Orthodox church although they are not tying it particularly to the Harpazo (Greek for rapture). There are a total of 7 catching aways that are described by this term in the old and new testaments.

     The Great Tribulation
     There are those who believe the Church will go through the Great Tribulation, including the Eastern Orthodox. In exploring this issue, it is essential to distinguish between persecution, which clearly has been the lot of the Church for 19 centuries, and “the Great Tribulation” of eschatological significance. The persecution – and tribulation – of the Church was clearly promised to us:
     These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33
     The source of this tribulation is the world and, of course, Satan. However, “the Great Tribulation” of eschatological significance is quite another matter.
     For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -Matthew 24:21
     The context here is clearly Israel. Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament:
     And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book -Daniel 12:1
     Note that “thy people will be delivered”: the focus of the “Great Tribulation” is Israel. That is why it is called “the time of Jacob’s Trouble”:
     Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. -Jeremiah 30:7
     Jesus (in the Old Testament) explains:
     I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offense, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly. -Hosea 5:15
     To “return,” He must have left His place! The offense referred to is singular and specific: their rejection of Him. In “their affliction” they will ultimately repent and He will respond.
     The Great Tribulation also involves more than the wrath of the world or the wrath of Satan: it involves the indignation and wrath of God. In contrast, the Church has been promised:
     For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,-1 Thessalonians 5:9
     And,
     Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. -Romans 5:9
     And, specifically,
     Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour [time] of temptation [trial], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.-Revelation 3:10
     Peter also emphasizes,
     The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: -2 Peter 2:9
     Here, Peter is using the judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah “as an example,” as Jesus also did, in which the prior removal of Lot was a precondition before the angels could do their work.
     A complete study of this issue involves careful and diligent study of both the Church (ecclesiology) as well as the eschatology (end time aspects) of the Great Tribulation, which, of course, far exceeds the focus of this brief review. It requires precise definitions of the terms used, and great care to understand how each of the elements of the revealed truth relate to each other.
     But the fundamental doctrine of imminence has to be forfeited with any view that requires the Great Tribulation – or any other precedent event – to occur prior to the Rapture.
     Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. -Luke 21:36
     Are you going to escape these things that shall come to pass? If so, how? Or are you relying on the notion that the Lord is “delaying His coming?” This could be a very dangerous presumption. Do your homework. It is important.

     Reply

     • You need to do a thorough study of Wrath (orge) – always against unbelievers and Tribulation (Thelipsis) always for believers. It should clear things up for you. We are not appointed to Wrath but (John 15:20) Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well. – We will go through the Great tribulation.

   • I have been reading about this topic and wondered about the imminent return of Christ. When did it become imminent? At Christ’s death? Because Jesus prophesied that Peter would die an old man by crucifixion. So would it be imminent after Peter died because the Bible is inerrant and all of Jesus prophecies will come to pass. Or was it after the destruction of the temple that Jesus also prophesied? Or was it after Israel became a nation in one day (in 1948) as Isaiah prophesied? Or that Jerusalem would become a “cup of trembling” (that is now happening) as Jeremiah prophesied? Or that Israel would be surrounded by her enemies (also now happening)? When does the return of Christ become imminent if you believe the Bible is inerrant and that the prophecies will come to pass? When I actually started looking at this doctrine that was not even considered as a debate before the 1830’s, I really can’t believe people would believe it. Yes, satan would benefit from this doctrine because people will not be prepared for the tribulation that could start at any minute. If you are not prepared, what will it take for anyone to spit in the face of Jesus and deny Him?

     Reply

   • I say Amen , to your last paragraph. Don’t get caught up in if there is or if there isn’t .Just be focused on Jesus !

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   • Beautifully expressed. God is calling His children to worship Him and look for His coming.

     Reply

3. Birthing of the Man Child
   Gaylene Womack – tshuwah@gmail.com
   June 25, 2009 – July 4, 2009

   This begins back in November 2005
   This is hard to write – something in the natural that happened in the spiritual. I pray the Lord will create within you the reality of under- standing the beauty of His kingdom.

   Before leaving Missouri, the Lord told me to prepare to receive my inher-itance that comes from the Lord. I shared this only with Kato, my friend from Uganda, as I perceived he also was about to receive.

   I don’t want this to be long, so I won’t go into all details of my being brought to this place in the Lord that I’m about to share with you. I pray it will bless you.

   First of all, within the first week of being back in Phoenix (second week of October), the Lord brought me to the place of forgiveness for all those that had hurt, betrayed and forsaken me. This happened as I was driv-ing in the car, worshipping the Lord. All of a sudden the following state-ment came out of my mouth (without it being a thought first), “I forgive them, Lord. It was just who You allowed to do this to me for the purpose of my partaking of Christ’s sufferings and dying to self – so it just doesn’t matter any longer!” What a cleansing that was!

   Secondly, within the second week He started restoring friendships.

   Thirdly, within the third week He started refreshing me. The joy of the Lord was returning. I was very dried up spiritually.

   As some of you know, I have been expecting a financial miracle as prophesied to me years ago and multiple times. I received something more precious than gold . . . something totally unexpected!

   Thursday, November 10th
   I was standing in my hotel room talking to the Lord. All of a sudden He showed me a clear vision of me standing off to the side and a circle of people around me. All of a sudden joy was imparted into me and took residence. I literally felt something enter me – like when you’re pregnant and the baby kicks. I was in a perfect state of peace – knowing nothing and no one could harm me. (I was in a terrible state financially and didn’t know where to go or what to do – very scared.) I’ve had the joy of the Lord before, as you probably have also, but this was nothing I had experienced before. This was not from my flesh man, or even my spirit – it was an impartation from the Holy Spirit, I felt it. I have never exper-ienced that depth of joy that came straight from the Lord’s throne room. I entered into a new dwelling place in the Lord. I knew I had become “one” with the Lord. I was then back in my body.

   Then two angels were standing next to me, attending to me, one to the right and one to the left. The thought that came to me was that I had been adorned (in a wedding dress) and they were making sure everything was perfect (like a bride in the bridal chamber)! Yes, that’s what I thought. Then this LOVE overwhelmed me and I was all of a sudden in love with my Beloved! This is the exact thought that was placed in my mind. I even had the butterflies in my stomach! Many times I have felt love for Jesus, but this was totally different. It entered me and took residence in me when I was standing off to the side. I was over-whelmed with this love and was crying with joy!

   At this point, I knew I could face anything whatsoever. My Beloved was in me and nothing could stop or hinder us! HalleluJah!

   After a time, I was led to check my emails. The following is part of a prophetic Word that I had received from someone I didn’t know, with the title being, THE NEW YOU . . . he had posted it this very day of the 10th.

   “JOY will be imparted to you . . . The NEW YOU is being marked with the JOY of the Lord! This will be your sign and the enemy cannot hinder it! The joy will be your sustaining strength, and because of this strength you will have peace in all matters and concerns of life, large and small.”

   I was not allowed to stay in this new dwelling place. It lasted for only a few hours, much to my grief. But it gave me the strength I needed to continue on, knowing I wanted to end up in this new dwelling place forever!

   As I sat at the desk the computer wouldn’t start, (I had to sign up for a conference), I put my elbows on the desk and held my head in my hands and softly prayed in the Spirit. All of a sudden I saw the heavens opened up (I have never seen this before) and oil was poured out on me. I lit-erally felt it on my head and flowing down my body! Then the oil mani-fested on my hands (I’ve had this before but this was so different – I don’t even know how to put it into words) – it was like a warm substance was poured on me and a mighty peace came with it. Then I touched the com-puter without saying a word, because I felt the holiness of the Lord’s presence and I didn’t want to disturb it. I then pushed the start button and the computer started.

   June 25, 2009 Unto you the Child is born.
   Early in the morning, just before I woke up, I heard, as an audible voice “unto you the Child is born”. It was a man’s voice and came from the side of my bed. It was so prevalent and loud that I instantly woke up knowing what was said. I wasn’t in a dream; I was simply asleep. As I awoke, the Holy Spirit led me to look up Rev. 12.

   Rev. 12:5,6 And she brought forth a Man Child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her Child was caught up unto God and unto His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260).

   Rev. 12:13,14 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the Man Child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent.

   Then the Lord had me read in Amos, of which I was receiving nothing, but as I left the bible on the couch to go do something, when I came back it was opened to Hosea, then my eyes were led to chapter 6, verses 1-3:

   Hosea 6:1-3 Come, let us return unto the Lord, for He hath torn, and He will heal us, He hath smitten and He will bind us up. After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning, and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and the former rain unto the earth.

   July 1, 2009
   The Holy Spirit just gave me the understanding of what happened in the hotel room so long ago (the above testimony). I was acting out a pro-phetic picture – Rev. 12:3 . . . the woman giving birth to the man Child and then the wedding of the Lamb.

   Example: I was homeless, living in a tent for 2 seasons (1991 and 1992) (it actually was a missionary trip) and the Lord gave me a prophecy that that was going to be the lifestyle in the U.S. – I was living that prophecy.

   The first vision – out of body – was “something” entering me, I literally felt a quickening (kicking) of the spirit in the womb. I now know that was the man Child, or the woman giving birth in the spiritual realm to the man Child.

   The second experience – back in my body – was being prepared for the wedding. Yes, the birthing comes before the wedding.

   The type/shadow is Mary and Joseph. Mary was pregnant before the wedding just as the woman giving birth before the wedding of the Lamb . . . after conceiving, Mary and Joseph married BUT they did not con- summate their marriage until AFTER the birth – hence the marriage was not validated until AFTER the birth of the Son. She is a type/shadow of the bride of Christ.

   That’s our inheritance that we are to seek and expect. I was expecting a financial miracle, because I was having financial shortages a lot! So, I was thinking in the natural mind and not the spirit and this long awaited for miracle had to be finances. NO! Something much better is my inher-itance, the kingdom of our Lord, which includes the blessings of Abra-ham, him being a type/shadow of our heavenly Father!

   The birthing of the man Child brings forth the wholeness of His kingdom. Read Rev. 12:10 . . . now is come salvation (rescue), and strength (mirac-ulous power), and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ. . .

   We are NOW in the birthing canal and the pains are harsh – the adver-sary will try to catch the man Child before He returns to His heavenly throne. He won’t be allowed to touch Him. Hang on! It’s worth everything we’ve had to go through to get to dwell in that new place (secret place of the Most High – Ps. 91) of His kingdom!

   July 3, 2009
   During my prayer time the Lord quickened to me Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send My messenger (angel), and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, Whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple (of which we are), even the messenger of the covenant, whom you delight in: behold he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. (KJ)

   Behold, I send My messenger, and He shall prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, the Messiah, Whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple: the Messenger or Angel of the covenant, whom you desire, behold he shall come, saith the Lord. (Amp.)

   The understanding for the above scripture is that “the messenger or angel of the covenant, whom you desire (for the purpose of hearing the announcement), behold he (the angel) shall come with the proclamation of the coming of the Lord”.

   Now I know that the voice from the side of my bed came from an angel (Dan. 8:18), preparing me for the coming forth of the Lord, the birthing of the man Child.
   July 4, 2009
   Luke 17:30 ((26) as it was in the days of Noe; (28) as it was in the days of Lot – that’s where we’re at today) . . . Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED.

   Revealed = apokalupto = take off the cover

   The revealing of the Lord is not the rapture/resurrection/gathering together. It’s Jesus being glorified in His true saints – this is the birthing of the man Child.

   II Thess. 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels . . . when He shall come to be GLORIFIED in His saints and to be admired in all them that believe . . . (KJ)

   The word REVEALED is the same Greek word used in Luke 17:30. This is NOT describing the rapture/resurrection/gathering together. If you go on to read II Thess. 2:1 you’ll read about the “coming” of the Lord. The Greek for “coming” is parousia, or rapture/resurrection/gathering together.

   II Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.

   You may wonder why He comes with His mighty angels. I’m sure it’s for His protection, as In Rev. 12 the dragon is waiting for the woman to give birth to the man Child so he can grab Him before He returns to His throne in heaven.

   Now let’s read from the Amplified version: II Thess. 1:10 When He comes to be GLORIFIED in His saints. (That is, on that day He will be made GLORIOUS in His consecrated people) and (He will) be marveled at and admired (in His GLORY reflected) in all who have believed – who have adhered to, trusted in and relied on Him . . .

   Haggai 2:7 . . . and I will fill this house (temple) with GLORY, saith the Lord of hosts.

   The birth of the man Child equals the manifest sons of God, which is the woman.

   Rom. 8:18,19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be REVEALED IN US.
   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

   Remember the word REVEALED means uncover. The word manifesta-tion means appearing.

   I John 3:2 Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet APPEAR what we shall be, but we know that, when He shall APPEAR (manifest, show self); we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

   The woman will give birth just before satan and his followers are cast out of the heavens down to the earth (Rev. 12:7-9).

   As Moses’ face shone with the GLORY of the Lord, so shall the woman, also known as the bride, shine. As Jesus shone on Mt. Transfiguration, so shall the woman shine.

   The Lord still has not given me the date when this will occur. Perhaps when the angel spoke to me “unto you the Child is born”, was calling things that are not as though they are – remember Abraham and Sarah? However, be assured, you’ll know when it happens as it is an “experience” – something actually happens to you – like what happened to me in the hotel room.

   Either way, it’s about to manifest soon. Remember the prophetic word He gave me “Your Inheritance” stated that soon we’ll be laughing with the Lord! I believe that!

   Reply

4. Hi.
   I found your Web Site by Google
   And I wish you the best you can get,
   the peace of God through Jesus Christ.

   Welcome to visit my Site.
   Allan Svensson, Sweden
   http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/INDEX.HTM

   The Bridegroom comes, Come out to meet him. Matt. 25:6.
   From where shall we go out? We shall go out of the great
   Babylon, the great whore. Rev. Chapter 17 and 18. This
   command of the Lord in Rev. 18:4 is now highly topical.

   Never before we have been so nearly Jesus’ coming as we
   are now, but how are God’s people prepared? How is the
   unity in the faith? Sorry, very bad! God’s people are more
   divided now than ever before. Instead of following what
   the Bible teaches about the Assembly of God, they have
   followed Satan’s false assembly doctrine. They believe
   that the Assembly of God is constituted of church systems
   and many religious organizations.

   Most Christians have not yet begun to prepare for Jesus’
   coming. They can speak and write that Jesus shall come,
   and about the signs of the time, yet they do not make any
   preparation to meet Jesus. How can we make a preparation?
   To make preparation and be ready for Jesus’ coming, God’s
   people must get the knowledge of the Assembly of God.

   All God’s people must in the first hand begin to study what
   the Bible teaches about the Assembly of God. What we
   need now before the restoration of the Assembly of God,
   it is humility before God’s word and a forgivable disposition
   to each other.

   The Assembly of God is no Pentecostal church. Please,
   consider what this expression “the Assembly of God” in the
   reality implies. The Assembly of God must be the same as
   the Greek word “ekklesia”, and the Body of Christ. 1 Cor.
   12:12-31. Then it is easy to understand that this has nothing
   to do with the Pentecostal Movement. Pentecostal churches
   have existed about 100 years, but the Assembly of God has
   ever existed since Jesus baptized his first disciples by the
   Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gave them the new life in Christ
   so that they became born anew. Then the Assembly of God
   was born.

   The Bridegroom comes, Come out to meet him
   http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/CRY.HTM

   Evil spirits in the churches
   http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/SPIRITS.HTM

   The great Apostasy
   http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/MESSAGE.HTM#Apostasy

   The exodus of God’s people from Babylon the great
   http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/CRISIS.HTM#exodus

   KJV, “the best English Bible” but not perfect
   http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/KING.HTM

   Reply

5. have you truly read the book of the church fathers, if you have please help me with Poul’s ideology of the end times

   Reply

   • Matthew 24… Paul refers to that…. and here; https://biblicaleschatology.org/2008/12/04/what-about-the-rapture/

     Reply

6. please may i know your name

   Reply

   • http://70030.netministry.com/pages.asp?pageid=56836

     Reply

7. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

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8. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

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   • NO! Not a peep, they world have seen this as at best ridiculous and a rabbit trail of misdirection or a tool of Satan to cause people to miss the grand point that Christ has, be loyal to Him!

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9. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

   Reply

10. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

    Reply

11. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

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12. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

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13. […] Did the early Church Fathers teach a rapture or a particular position of it? March 2009 15 comments 3 […]

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14. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

    Reply

15. […] Did the Reformers Teach the Rapture […]

    Reply

    • No,…none of them, this should be a clue…. be blessed!

      Reply

16. Heres my theology regarding the rapture and end times. I’m going when He is coming.

    Reply

17. / Yo, BEB. Sharing a transmission I caught lately on the net. /

    The Real Morgan Edwards

    by George Wilson

    In 1995, in a 24-page booklet on 18th century pastor Morgan Edwards, evangelist John Bray claimed that Edwards taught a pretrib rapture in his 1788 book titled “Two Academical Exercises….”
    Those echoing Bray include Thomas Ice who wrote “Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist.” Edwards’ 1788 work can be found on the internet.
    In order to claim that Edwards held to pretrib, candidates for the I-can-find-pretrib-earlier-in-church-history-than-you-can medal – including Bray, Ice, LaHaye, Frank Marotta etc. – have intentionally covered up Edwards’ “historicism,” his belief that the tribulation had already been going on for hundreds of years. (How can anyone in the tribulation go back in time and look for a pretrib rapture?)
    Here’s proof of Edwards’ historicism and its companion “day-year” theory which can view the 1260 tribulation “days” as “years.”
    On p. 14 Edwards described the Ottoman Empire (which was then already 400 years old) as the Rev. 13:11 “beast.” On p. 20 he defined “Antichrist” as the already 1000-year-old “popery” and the “succession of persons” known as “Popes” – his other Rev. 13 “beast.” He necessarily viewed Rev. 13’s 1260-day period as 1260 literal years in order to provide enough time for his two “beasts.”
    On p. 19, while discussing “the ministry of the witnesses” of Rev. 11, he allotted “about 204 years” for their “years to perform” – years impossible to fit into a 3.5-year period!
    What about Edwards’ rapture? On pp. 21-23 he wrote about “the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself….The signs of Christ’s appearing in the clouds will be extraordinary ‘wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,’ &. (Matth. xxiv. 6-8.)….The signs of his coming, in the heavens will be ‘the trump of God [I Thess. 4:16], vapor and smoke, which will darken the sun and moon [Matt. 24:29],’…and also cause those meteors called ‘falling stars’….
    Right after his combined rapture/advent (!), Edwards said: “And therefore, now, Antichrist…will…counterfeit the preceding wonders in heaven…causing ‘fire to come down from heaven’….And that godhead he will now assume, after killing the two witnesses….Now the great persecution of the Jews will begin…for time, times, and half a time….”
    Thomas Ice’s article on Edwards (see first par. above) quoted only the first 27 words in the above quotation, ending with “to himself.” This sort of unethical revisionism is constantly employed by many pretrib defenders.
    Not only had most of Edwards’ historicist tribulation occurred before his combined rapture/advent, but his Antichrist kept raging for 3.5 years even after the Matt. 24 signs! No wonder his tutor advised him to correct his thesis!
    To read Edwards’ complete work, Google “[PDF] Two Academical Exercises…www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com.”
    For more info on Edwards, Google “McPherson Page” (click on a reproduction of “Cover-Ups”). Also Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by historian Dave MacPherson.

    Reply

18. Man is given a free will by God and therefore the harm we do to one another is permitted by God. Case in point, the ancient Christians in the Coliseum. However, God’s wrath only targets the unjust, not all. Case in point, Sodom and Gomorrah and the days of Noah, the just were spared. Why would God protect 10k of every tribe of Israel and not the elect. Why would he send two witnesses, if Christians are witnesses to Christ? I am a Catholic, but have a problem with the nullification of the Rapture. If Christ is to bring Heaven to Earth then why would he first meet us in the sky? It doesn’t make any sense. I have heard a few priests mention the Rapture. I personally believe that the Church wants us to heal the world with his Word and preach the Gospel, not ignore our present problems and be consumed with the upcoming Rapture and forget about our ultimate goal,”To save our Soul and that of our Fellow Man”.

    Reply

19. You could certainly see your skills within the article
    you write. The world hopes for even more passionate writers such as you who aren’t afraid to mention how they believe. All the time go after your heart.

    Reply

20. Appreciation to my father who shared with me about this weblog,
    this blog is genuinely amazing.

    Reply

21. Eph. 5:32 a profound mystery. SOS 2:10, 13….. SOS 6:13. Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. Jacob received Leah , worked out his bridal week and received Rachel, the one he had worked for. David was king over Judah 7 years and six months before he was king over all Israel. Most of the old testament prophets have a reference to a remnant that will leave early. Isaiah 57, many many more. Those willing, left Babylon 2-3 years before the seventy years prophesied about. There is a time, when the prophets declare, at the end, that there will be no righteous person left on the earth. The bride has the righteousness of Christ, God bless.

    Reply

22. I have done my own study on the rapture. The Catholic church doesn’t recognize the rapture yet it was Bishop Jerome who created the word rapimur. In English it is translated into rapture. I have never seen anything that would lead me to any conclusion that’s says there is no rapture. You are dead wrong.

    Reply

23. In this article you stated, ‘This is what is called Isogesis, which means “to lead in” or “reading into” the sentence; in the Scriptures, it is inserting an opinion that is not there’. The correct spelling is eisegesis, which is in contrast to, exegesis.

    Reply

    • Yes, but both spellings are correct in the academic community, exo more American, iso more British, and I used this one for SEO purposes. Here is more, be blessed!

      http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=77775&columnid=3801

      Reply

      • Dear staff,

        Your explanation is incorrect. I have 2 degrees from the academic community and am working on my third (a PhD). Why don’t you try putting ‘isogesis’ and ‘exogesis’ into http://dictionary.reference.com/ to see what you get?

        Eisegesis and exegesis are the correct spellings in both the USA and the British system. How do I know? I have 2 degrees, one a bachelor’s and the other a master’s, from the USA system. I’m currently in the final stages of my dissertation-only British system PhD. At none of these universities was isogesis acceptable as a spelling but eisegesis is correct.

        Exogesis, you say, is more American. In my copy of the /Webster’s Dictionary (Unabridged)/, there is no such a word as ‘exogesis’ but there is ‘exegesis’.

        I happen to have a bachelor’s degree in the American system in biblical literature and NT Greek and the second a master’s degree and the only accepted spellings were eisegesis and exegesis.

        Please consult Oxford dictionaries online: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/. There is ‘eisegesis’ but no ‘isogesis’ in this dictionary.

        Seems like you are barking up the wrong tree. The correct spellings in both the USA and Britain are eisegesis and exegesis.

        Sincerely in Christ, Spencer Gear

        > WordPress.com >

      • Like we said Exe-Eise, is correct, Iso is also used, and for people to search, SEO, common use in blogging, thus Iso is a colloquialism used a lot in Brit circles, of and it is used more and more…. I suggest you do more research and then choose a wiser use of your time, blessings….

      • I have already explained to you that isogesis is NOT in British or American dictionaries in English.

        Even more, eisegesis, is based on the Greek preposition ‘eis’, which means ‘to, into’, while exegesis is based on the Greek preposition, ‘ek’, which means ‘out of’. Eisegesis is putting meaning into the text, while exegesis is getting the meaning out of the text.

        Would you please refer me to British or American academic sources that accept isogesis as the correct spelling? I have already referred you to British and American dictionaries that do not accept isogesis as a legitimate spelling.

        Sincerely, Spencer

        > WordPress.com >

      • As we stated, we agree with you! … It is how we spell it in most accounts…. But, in papers presented while I was at Oxford and in the Bible School I teach in and 16k+ other places according to Google, it is spelled that way, why we used it, for SEO, search engines… please find a better subject to talk about and would love to here it, be blessed!

24. MARGARET MACDONALD’S MAIN POINT

    By Dave MacPherson

    John Darby, Paul Wilkinson, and Thomas Ice are among those who have flunked the Margaret Macdonald test by covering up and misinterpreting what she (as the pretrib rapture originator) actually stated in 1830!

    My book “The Rapture Plot” discusses Margaret’s two-part main point (lines 58-63 in her 117-line account): seeing “one taken and the other left” before “THE WICKED” (Antichrist) is “revealed.”

    Hal Lindsey’s “The Rapture” correctly says she taught “a partial Rapture” – that only PART of the church will be pretribbed up.

    Walvoord’s “The Rapture Question” also describes partial rapturists as “pretribulationists,” and their charts show the “church” BEFORE AND AFTER their rapture in the same way Margaret was a “church splitter.” (Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” and “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines.”)

    Both John Cardale (in Edward Irving’s journal in Dec. 1830) and John Darby (in his 1853 book) described their visits to mid-1830 meetings Margaret conducted in her home. Darby’s “recollection” was such a mirror of the many details in Cardale’s published account 23 years earlier that I’m convinced that Darby was merely copying Cardale’s details, and Darby listed all of the details except one!

    Although Darby mentioned Margaret’s “texts on overcoming” (the “tribulation” or second half of her main point), he deliberately omitted her emphasis on “the coming of the Lord” (rapture) as the church’s “deliverance” before the “judgments coming on the earth” which all visitors, except Darby, admitted was a pretrib event (the “rapture” or first half of her main point)!

    Margaret’s visitors included writers for Irving’s journal “The Morning Watch.” Within weeks it reflected Margaret’s unique and original “church/church dichotomy” (“spiritual” church members raptured and “less spiritual” church members left behind) when it saw the “Philadelphia” church raptured BEFORE “the great tribulation” and the “Laodicea” church left on earth.

    Well, if Darby could be a revisionist with Margaret’s words, so could Wilkerson and Ice today.

    After Joe Schimmel’s Good Fight Ministries produced the “Left Behind or Led Astray?” video (the greatest video exposure ever of pretribism’s dishonesty-riddled history!), Britisher Paul Wilkinson savagely attacked it in an uber-unscholarly way in a video produced by the Berean Call Ministry titled “Left Behind or Led Astray? – Exposed.”

    In order to please his think-alike idol, John Darby, Wilkinson deliberately stopped his quotation of Margaret at line 45 so that he could omit the first (pretrib) part of her main point in order to be able to falsely declare that she advocated “a post-tribulation Rapture”!

    Thomas Ice has been even more nervy than Wilkinson, his British “twin.” When Ice quoted Margaret’s 117-line account in the Dallas Seminary journal he omitted ALL OF HER MAIN POINT but made up for it by quoting just BEFORE and AFTER it! (Ice’s “PhD” was “earned” at the unaccredited Tyndale Seminary in Texas which, according to World Net Daily, was heavily fined by the State of Texas for illegally issuing degrees – too many degrees for the Texas heat!

    Finally, if Ice, Wilkinson and other pretrib escape artists love Jews and Israel as much as they say they do, why don’t they want to be on earth during “Jacob’s trouble” to aid and comfort Jews and others? (Some Google items related to this include “Greatest Hebrew-Christian Scholars NOT Pretrib,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”

    [The preceding composition was observed not long ago on the surprising http://WWW.]

    Reply